Where is the Line?
In my daily batch of mail, today, I received an X-Biz Newsletter that had the following article:
Red Rose Stories Closed by FBI
You can ask Jude Mason about my initial reaction. I think my recently diagnosed ulcer look a very negative leap toward the bleeding side of the equation. But thanks to a bit of behind-the-scenes research on my part, and on the part of the wonderful Ms. Mason, it seems that Miss Rose was not very discriminating in her publishing habits.
As I wrote on the X-Biz boards:
“At first, this article busted my chops, but on further investigation, she even admits to publishing kiddie porn, and a bit of Google searching easily turns such stories up. She also admits to bestiality, scat and other fringe fetishes. My bet is you'll find snuff stories, too.
While most everyone, myself included, has tended to think that the written word was safe, publishing kiddie porn in any shape, form, or fashion is likely to draw very unwanted attention. And, as loosely interpreted as the term 'obscenity' is, you should bet your bippy that you stand a good chance of getting tagged if there are kids involved, even if it's prose, with the new federal push going on.
Painting a big red "X" across your site's home page would probably be safer. And, at the risk of drawing considerable fire here, if we as adult webmasters are willing to really condone any kind of child porn under the guise of FANTASY, I'd suggest perhaps the industry might have some of the scrutiny it's getting coming.”
Unlike this blog, the X-Biz boards are visited by tons of people, many with credentials that make mine look pale. I have no doubt I’ll catch heat from some staunch 1st amendmenters. But, flame broiled or not, I’ll stand by that assertion. Just because we can do a thing legally (though perhaps questionably so) is it the right thing to do? I simply can’t agree with tolerating child pornography in any guise, and I have to reluctantly agree with any government agency that seeks to shut it down.
Please feel free to argue with me. A little spirited debate in this blog would pep me up immensely. Be warned, however, that you won’t change my mind.
Unfortunately, we have no real reason to believe that Red Rose was tagged because of the extreme content. I hope that’s the case. I’ll even choose to believe that’s the case. My fear, however, is that today’s child porn in the eyes of the feds may well be tomorrow’s erotic BDSM. If I choose to think child porn, bestiality, and snuff cross a line, who’s to say my line is the same as the government’s?
Rose may be right – we may only be safe in writing consensual sex between married partners (male and female) during the three non-menstrual weeks of a month in the dark when the children are at school.
Like I also wrote in my X-Biz post, “While a lot of people might be willing to breathe a sigh of relief knowing that they don't have the "really bad" stuff, I'm not certain that holding your breath isn't still in order.”
If I start turning blue, I’ll let you know.
Red Rose Stories Closed by FBI
You can ask Jude Mason about my initial reaction. I think my recently diagnosed ulcer look a very negative leap toward the bleeding side of the equation. But thanks to a bit of behind-the-scenes research on my part, and on the part of the wonderful Ms. Mason, it seems that Miss Rose was not very discriminating in her publishing habits.
As I wrote on the X-Biz boards:
“At first, this article busted my chops, but on further investigation, she even admits to publishing kiddie porn, and a bit of Google searching easily turns such stories up. She also admits to bestiality, scat and other fringe fetishes. My bet is you'll find snuff stories, too.
While most everyone, myself included, has tended to think that the written word was safe, publishing kiddie porn in any shape, form, or fashion is likely to draw very unwanted attention. And, as loosely interpreted as the term 'obscenity' is, you should bet your bippy that you stand a good chance of getting tagged if there are kids involved, even if it's prose, with the new federal push going on.
Painting a big red "X" across your site's home page would probably be safer. And, at the risk of drawing considerable fire here, if we as adult webmasters are willing to really condone any kind of child porn under the guise of FANTASY, I'd suggest perhaps the industry might have some of the scrutiny it's getting coming.”
Unlike this blog, the X-Biz boards are visited by tons of people, many with credentials that make mine look pale. I have no doubt I’ll catch heat from some staunch 1st amendmenters. But, flame broiled or not, I’ll stand by that assertion. Just because we can do a thing legally (though perhaps questionably so) is it the right thing to do? I simply can’t agree with tolerating child pornography in any guise, and I have to reluctantly agree with any government agency that seeks to shut it down.
Please feel free to argue with me. A little spirited debate in this blog would pep me up immensely. Be warned, however, that you won’t change my mind.
Unfortunately, we have no real reason to believe that Red Rose was tagged because of the extreme content. I hope that’s the case. I’ll even choose to believe that’s the case. My fear, however, is that today’s child porn in the eyes of the feds may well be tomorrow’s erotic BDSM. If I choose to think child porn, bestiality, and snuff cross a line, who’s to say my line is the same as the government’s?
Rose may be right – we may only be safe in writing consensual sex between married partners (male and female) during the three non-menstrual weeks of a month in the dark when the children are at school.
Like I also wrote in my X-Biz post, “While a lot of people might be willing to breathe a sigh of relief knowing that they don't have the "really bad" stuff, I'm not certain that holding your breath isn't still in order.”
If I start turning blue, I’ll let you know.
posted by Matt Nicholson at 9:47 PM
10 Comments:
If all these lines get drawn...then what.....We may not agree with things people say or do, I get shit for the things I write as well, but it is My right to WRITE about it.
Pictures are one thing, but words from a fantasy? a story? Yes there are some freaks in this world, and not all people are wired the same, so does that make them wrong? For their kink? You have yours, I have mine, and the freaks have theirs. I do not like it, but it is not My place to say they are fucked up, or judge them, nor is it yours.
"sticks and stones will break My bones but words will never hurt Me."
Oh and this one
"Actions speak louder than words."
You know, I was so excited to get a thoughtful reply to my blog I almost conceded your point just as a thanks.
But. . . nah. . .
While I agree with you to a point, I still can't do so completely. I'll likely live to regret my words if this administration survives the current poor-response-to-hurricanes, made-up-war-for-profit, recommend-your-secretary-for-high-courtspade of self-destruction, but. . .
I have a day job. While I'm very protective of revealing what that job entails, I can say that I'm pretty well-versed on the wiring of a pedophile.
Let's say for conversation's sake that my ultimate fantasy would be to really have the opportunity to snack have unrestricted oral access to a pair of luscious breasts - just for conversation's sake, mind you. I don't spend every waking hour pursuing that fantasy. I recognize it as fantasy. I will never kidnap a woman to realize it.
True, some folks with similar fantasies might act out on them. There are those with crossed wires, to use your metaphor, but they are the rarity.
Pedophiles, on the other hand, are a different breed. The crimes they commit are horrible, even if it *just* involves taking pictures. If they don't physically harm a child, they still emotionally scar them for life.
You and I, as kinky as we may be, read our porn, and look at our pictures. We do what we do with them and we're done. Pedophiles do not. They may use porn temporarily, but the end game involves a real child.
They do not substitute pornography for fantasy, like we do. They use it as a stop gap, as twisted encouragement and support, justification that what they do, and plan, and desire is acceptable because others do it, and plan it, and desire it.
To use your quotes to support a person's rights to engage in safe and sane fantasy is one thing, but words *can* hurt when it comes to child pornography.
And if we, as writers and publishers of adult erotica are not willing to draw that line and fight for it, then we leave the government no choice. And once they have the chance to engage that battle, they control the battle lines, not us.
Martin Niemoeller, 1892-1984:
In Germany, first they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.
~~~~~~~~
When people start drawing lines, it is only a matter of time before they bring their little rulers and crayons into our own backyards.
I, too, know a little bit about the pedophile mind. Admittedly, probably not as much as you. My knowledge is based on a few sex/psyche classes, my friendship with a gentleman who administered a facility for convicted pedophiles, and a two-day seminar I took in college (Sexual Exploitation of Children).
I also count among my clients professional men of the doctor, lawyer, & Indian chief variety that harbor many deviant fantasies of what is --plain and simple-- jack-off material ONLY. Pedophiles are the problem here, not the fantasizers.
As usual, the hypocritical, right-wing eye is out of focus and ineffective.
Except when it comes to utilizing the tried and true "divide and conquer" method of attack, in which we scrimmage to save our own little backyard while watching our neighbors gardens destroyed, one by one, as we rationalize our quiet tongues helpless hands, and keep hoping the crayons won't reach this far.
But they will.
The problem, as you point out, is that "we have no real reason to believe that Red Rose was tagged because of the extreme content." Rather, "today’s child porn in the eyes of the feds may well be tomorrow’s erotic BDSM."
One can argue this point on the grounds of free speech, but the bottom line is, there are things which are not acceptable in free speech. You can not yell fire in a crowded theater.
Child picture pornograpy is not legal in our society and never has been in my memory. A child, by definition, cannot give legal consent to having their picture taken and the law doesn't allow adults to make that decision for the child either.
Pedophiles suffer from a mental illness, what is considered an incurable mental illness, and, yes, I have the credentials to say that. What I find is unconscionable, is making child pornograpy "fantasies" available to individuals with mental illnesses and calling it free speech. Rather like blowing smoke in the face of someone on oxygen and calling it a public service.
Don't get me wrong, folks. I *did* write the words that marc quoted, and I meant them. We *don't* know what motivated the raid. Truth be told, we don't know much of anything about the situation.
I do not trust the government, especially this one, to have the proper motivation for its actions. I suspect they will use any excuse or tool at their disposal to shut down everything adult-oriented on the web if given a chance. I am still as vigilant, if not more so, as a result of the Red Rose situation.
That said, let's please not draw corrolaries between Communism, Judaism, Unionism, Catholocism, and Protestantism and Pedophilia. To do so in the name of protecting our freedom of speech is. . . frightening.
And while we would like to say that any person should have the right to write whatever they want, and to fantasize about whatever they want, I will not toss myself so headlong into idealism that I would ignore the realities of the types of people that prey on children for their sexual release.
We must draw lines. We draw them all the time. We can not kill. We can not speed. We can not steel. we can not yell fire in a crowded building. They are all lines.
I'm scared to death of the direction our country is headed. Damned straight. But even those of us that claim to be freer in our thoughts, more open minded, liberal, whatever, must have limits and boundaries that we recognize.
Having sex with children, preying on children, is one of those boundaries we can't compromise, even if it means having to grit our teeth and give the government an inch we'd rather not give. And, even if it is just prose, writing about doing these things to children - *just* writing about it - furthers the goals of the people that want to do it.
marc, you're absolutely right. We don't know why Red Rose was shut down. We should be scared. we should be vigilant.
But fighting for the right for people to be able to further the desire to sexually abuse children, even in writing, is part of what has brought our lives into the crosshairs to begin with.
You don't have to draw that line, folks. But I most certainly will.
I truly wanted to keep out of this one. I believe in free speech. Saying or writing about a topic doesn't constitute the act. BUT, child porn sickens me to the core.
I think the biggest issue here is that line that's been mentioned. The line between what's right and wrong. Is my line in the same place as yours? Of course not, and that's what the US government is depending on to push whatever laws it wants down everyone's throat.
I'm a writer. I have written in genre that might make some readers head for the hills. Does someone have the right to tell me I can't write a BDSM story with characters who are of legal age and consent to whatever treatment I write about? Some might say yes, I should be locked up and brainwashed until I think lights out, missionary sex for procreation is the only way.
I pray that never comes.
Pedophiles are sick. Agreed. What about the oriental fetish, that apparently is very widely accepted, of men fantasizing about school girls in their uniforms, even going so far as to create a fashion where young women use this fetish to attract men. Is that pedophelia?
What about the beauty pageants they have for little girls now? Dressed up and made up to look like dolls, not baby dolls but sexy little girl dolls. What's that all about?
What about the coming of age stories that can be as moving and beautiful as any romance? Is that porn? Lolita, a 13 year old girl with a 30 something man, was that porn?
There are so many questions, and we all have our own answers.
I don't have the answers, I have tons of concerns. Allowing a government to decide what can and can't be written is wrong, in my opinion. Book burnings come to mind.
Okay, I'm going to stop now before I really get confusing. *G*
Great post Matt.
I don't trust this administration either. I don't like the fact that the right is attacking the historic lines between church and state so religious fundamentalists can cram their views down the throats of the rest of us. They scare the crap out of me.
I'm also a erotic romance novelist and a reporter, so my belief in the First Amendment is passionate.
However, having been a reporter, and being married to a cop who polygraphs pedophiles on a regular basis, I've seen what pedophila does to people's lives.
I don't think the line between fantasizing and reality is that thick for pedophiles. If someone has fantasized about something long enough, read enough pedo fiction, etc., is he really going to resist tempation when his sister asks him to babysit his four-year old neice? And having gotten away with it once, he's going to keep doing it.
My husband says most pedophiles have offended 60 times or more before they finally get caught.
Once I covered a court trial in which a former cop had molested his stepdaughters, six and twelve. He went to jail for kiddie porn. At the time, his stepdaughters had denied he'd molested them, but when he finally got out, they admitted it and he was charged.
By this time, the girls were in their late teens. As I listened to the testimony, it was plain to me that this guy's actions had totally screwed those two children up. They were involved in drugs, and other students mocked them and said they were sluts. They were wrecked people.
Presenting children as sex objects is dangerous, period. If the FBI shut that site down, bravo to the FBI.
And there you have it. There is a bigger picture. As responsible citizens of our community, state, country, and world, it's up to us to set a standard that we aggressively hold fast to. At times fighting for one standard causes us to have to objectively look at another part of our lives and decide which of the two should take priority.
Providing a support system for pedophiles versus our right to write about it. . .
It's an unfortunate position, but if we don't choose the right side of that fence, others will choose it for us, and will lump us in with it.
It's happening all over the world. Many countries are leaning toward more conservative governments because we. . . liberals (for lack of a better term) have stuck to the wrong guns. If the conservative trend continues because a majority of the population is becoming fed up with some of our idealistic outlooks, then we'll loose much more than the right to write extreme stuff. We'll lose our right to write it all.
It's your personal call. I've made mine.
Thanks, Angela.
Hello... Rosie responded to a posting in my journal about her 'stories'. I thought you might be interested in seeing it. Personally, without attacking directly due to my own lack of details on what she did or didn't have on her site... I tried to make the point that those child stories just BEING there could have been a catalyst for illegal behavior. I agree with you... blurring the line between freedom of speach and 'fantasy' in an attempt to defend child porn is not ok. I would call it 'enabling', and in some jurisdictions, I believe that is also illegal. Knowing what you do about the psychological make up of pedo's, I hope you don't find it too offensive that a lifestyler (me) would gladly give up an inch of my own freedom in order to protect children from this mess. Assuming of course, that the latest gov't 'squad' has only the purest of intentions toward that end. Personally, it scares the hell out of me, all their vague references to SM... it's too open to interpretation for my tastes... anyway, here's what Rosie said in response to my posting that she had child porn (textual) on her site, and my response. http://www.phonesexsub.com/brat_blog/erotic-bdsm-stories/ I'm not trying to spam you, please feel free to delete this post if you think it's necessary, I just wanted you to see what she said. :)
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